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Sticky: Sticky: Introduction
Apr. 7th, 2022 09:08 am![[sticky entry]](http://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/entry/sticky_entry.png){kind=small}
Hi, I'm Eevee, also known as LifeOfMystery/DreamOfMystery. Making this post as an intro to anyone who wants to drop in and say hi!
Deepdive on 'The Northern Caves'
May. 23rd, 2024 01:30 pmI recently finished "The Northern Caves" (TNC) by nostalgebraist, an original work posted on AO3 which can be most succintly described as a metanarrative about a forum discussing their favourite author's confusing final novel. I highly recommend it, and love how it accurately details the forum experience and the general people who would spend their time focusing on subject matter like this (definitely can't relate to the obsessing deeply over a fictional media, not at all!) What interested me most was how it mirrored real world issues, and might have inadvertently predicted a damning series of financial fraud.
If you are at all interested in reading it, I would recommend doing that before reading further as I'm going to discuss the ending. It's about 50k words but due to the forum elements such as signatures the length feels different from an entirely prose based 50k. If you don't want to read a whole 50k but are interested in reading further, here's a brief summary.
TNC starts from the forum posts discussing the aversity towards Leonard Salby's, the in universe author, confusing final work. The final novel is also titled "The Northern Caves", but I'll call it the final novel for comprehensibility. His final novel is an incomprehensible mass of gibberish with only a few moments of sanity, in contrast to his other works, which were a highly structured, continuity based fantasy series. One forum member decides to try making the final novel make sense along the previous structure of finely planned continuity and detailing, believing that Salby would never make something so incomprehensible without an ulterior meaning behind it. This leads to a group meeting where the forum looks over Salby's notes passed on after he died. His notes reveal that Salby was a deep believer in the philosphy of "Mundum", that everything in the world has a place and it is the moral imperative to arrange things according to Mundum's will. Salby's entire novel series was based around pleasing this Mundum, with the last incomprehensible novel his final ode to Mundum's will. The reveal that there wasn't a plan, that these books didn't intent to have a constructed plot hidden in code for the audience, destabilises the group and they slowly descend into madness. Some fall into obsession with the ideas of Mundum while others feel rejected for their deep study of his work not being met with answers.
TNC is a work with a lot of ambiguous elements. The introduction to Salby's final work and the forum discussions start out plausible by realistic standards, but elements that imply the supernatural get slowly introduced. The major supernatural element is three suicides from members of a cafe the forum goes visit together. It is left unanswered whether one of the forum goers compelled the staff to commit suicide from the almight force of an unknown being, or if it was just entirely a coincedence that they had nothing to do with. The ambiguity lies in the fact that the narrator for the entire work is one of the most affected characters of the story, and the entire narrative bar the last chapter is the contents of that narrator's record. The last chapter is a transcription of a podcast reflecting on the scene ten years later, but ultimately doesn't clarify most of the ambiguity left from the narrator's record. In the end, the supernatural elements remain questionable without many strong answers drawn between different elements of the plot. It's this nature of ambiguity that brings me to what I found the most interesting thing about "The Northern Caves": the conversation around it.
Naturally, as a work with a lot of ambigious elements will curate, there's a lot of controversy about the ending. Some people really hate it, some people love it. Some people say it's good but the unnecessary addition of three suicides confused them and pushed the story too far away from the plausible. Some of these people really, vehemently hate the ending.
Okay, so, who are these people and why do they hate it so much? Background info: there is a movement called the rationalist movement, a philosphical movement which can be defined as "...a community that call themselves Rationalists, that read ‘high-IQ sites’ such as Marginal Revolution, Less Wrong, and Slate Star Codex, and according to various surveys, identify as liberal, are atheist or agnostic, and, in general, hold a ‘realist’ philosophical worldview."[1] You've probably encountered someone like this on the internet before, YMMV on how you feel about it. The reason why rationality is relevant is that nostalgebraist is considered part of that community, and his work was linked within rationalist communities as an example of a work made by "one of them".[2]
Rationalists - as seen on the internet - tend to focus in communities dedicated to exploring rationalist works of fiction, works of fiction that focus on the same scientific deconstruction and explanation of rational elements that they take interest in. "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality" is the most famous work of this nature, written by Elizier Yudkowsky who himself is a proclaimed rationalist. The parallels between the rational community and the in-universe forum are not easy to miss. The forum wanted to pick apart Salby's final work to make sense in the same way that the Rationalist community demands answers and a lack of unreliability. Ambiguity is inherently displeasing, everything needs to make sense, and everything must be answered for. Throw "The Northern Caves" into this kind of community and what do you think you will get?
Vehement dislike, is what you get.
For an example of a rationalist review, look towards Slate Star Scratchpad's which has the hallmarks of a rationlist review. Slate's negative points of the novel include a lack of conclusiveness over the major elements, details drawn that aren't adequetely explained, and the overall "horror" being too ambigious. Slate overall wanted everything to be finally drawn out and explained so every thread would tie back into having a reason.
This state of mind paralles the in-universe forum urge to ignore the incomprehensible so strongly it's almost absurd. Fiction mirroring reality. I'm not going to say this state of mind is necessarily a bad one, it can be nice to see things tie up and packaged together in a satisfying way that resolves everything. However, this state of mind is not one I share, and to be quite honest, find boring. "The Northern Caves" is a work of horror fiction. The very act of ambiguity is an intentional choice to create the feeling of paranoia and dissolution, not a mistake left by being unable to resolve the elements nostalgebraist introduced.
Seeing nostalgebraist's work with the context they are aware of the rationlist movement recontextualises the early scenes of fervent devotion to the novel manifasted in deep analysis in continuity and the linkage of tiny details. In-universe reviews criticse Salby's novels for sticking too throughly to these ideals, being "complicated without complexity". That is, confusingly detailed without any deeper level of maturity. One can't wonder if nostalgebraist perceives the rational community as that. It certainly doesn't harm the case that nostalgebraist doesn't see himself as rationalist, despite the community at large considering them a member. [3]
Complicated without complexity.
Predicting the Future?
When I started writing this, I hadn't even considered this angle. Something I had read about previously, and forgotten.
The last half of TNC focuses more on Salby's view of "mundum" and the narrator falling into these belief patterns, while the final chapter confirms the narrator created a cult following Salby's views after the main events of the narrative.
I can't help but compare this to the more recent events in the rational community. The events that pushed the idea of "effective altruism" into the light, and more importantly, into controversy.
Effective altruism can be defined as a way to min-max your own altruist effect on the world through the means of spending large amounts of capital in the most efficient way. Rather than volunteering your time, it is considered better to invest and then donate that money to the most cost effective cause. This philisophy is closely linked to ideas of rationalism as often spread through rationalist websites such as LessWrong. It has been (justly) criticised for applying a business analytical view to being kind, in a way that justifies the aggregation of capital for one's own self in defense that it helps the whole world. If it wasn't already clear I heavily dislike this philosphy for many hopefully obvious reasons.
The events that pushed effective altruism into the limelight was the fall of Sam Bankman-Fried, of crypto-currency fame. He was a prone proponent of effective altruism, attaching his own business to that label. However, the reveal of his fradualent activity and eventual conviction sheds an eye on the reality of this philosophy. Gaining capital to such a high degree will - at some point - involve moral failings. To become a billionaire one must profit off other people's labour, off the excess difference between their position as leadership and the ones actually doing the physical labour. Crypto is an industry filled with scams, so if "effective altruism" was a philosphy purely motivated by altruism surely people like Sam Bankman-Fried would not exist. But of course they do, because effective altruism is an inherently flawed philosophy.
In TNC the narrator eventually ends up leading a cult following the ideology of Mundum, of this idea of perfect arrangement. Sam Bankman-Fried has been described as leading a cult of personality around his focus on crypto. Looking back on TNC, a work posted in 2015, with this future knowledge makes the narrative that much more intriguing. Was this work specifically about the rational community? Or was it about the general flaws in human nature that could lead one down the path of obsession?
Either way, I simply find it fascinating to consider a work of art that could predict their own communities' downfall, and I hope you enjoyed this exploration with me.
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/rationalist-movement ↩
[2] Reddit comment from r/Rational about Nostalgebraist's TNC↩
[3] https://nostalgebraist.tumblr.com/post/134791271364/am-i-a-rationalist ↩
If you are at all interested in reading it, I would recommend doing that before reading further as I'm going to discuss the ending. It's about 50k words but due to the forum elements such as signatures the length feels different from an entirely prose based 50k. If you don't want to read a whole 50k but are interested in reading further, here's a brief summary.
TNC starts from the forum posts discussing the aversity towards Leonard Salby's, the in universe author, confusing final work. The final novel is also titled "The Northern Caves", but I'll call it the final novel for comprehensibility. His final novel is an incomprehensible mass of gibberish with only a few moments of sanity, in contrast to his other works, which were a highly structured, continuity based fantasy series. One forum member decides to try making the final novel make sense along the previous structure of finely planned continuity and detailing, believing that Salby would never make something so incomprehensible without an ulterior meaning behind it. This leads to a group meeting where the forum looks over Salby's notes passed on after he died. His notes reveal that Salby was a deep believer in the philosphy of "Mundum", that everything in the world has a place and it is the moral imperative to arrange things according to Mundum's will. Salby's entire novel series was based around pleasing this Mundum, with the last incomprehensible novel his final ode to Mundum's will. The reveal that there wasn't a plan, that these books didn't intent to have a constructed plot hidden in code for the audience, destabilises the group and they slowly descend into madness. Some fall into obsession with the ideas of Mundum while others feel rejected for their deep study of his work not being met with answers.
TNC is a work with a lot of ambiguous elements. The introduction to Salby's final work and the forum discussions start out plausible by realistic standards, but elements that imply the supernatural get slowly introduced. The major supernatural element is three suicides from members of a cafe the forum goes visit together. It is left unanswered whether one of the forum goers compelled the staff to commit suicide from the almight force of an unknown being, or if it was just entirely a coincedence that they had nothing to do with. The ambiguity lies in the fact that the narrator for the entire work is one of the most affected characters of the story, and the entire narrative bar the last chapter is the contents of that narrator's record. The last chapter is a transcription of a podcast reflecting on the scene ten years later, but ultimately doesn't clarify most of the ambiguity left from the narrator's record. In the end, the supernatural elements remain questionable without many strong answers drawn between different elements of the plot. It's this nature of ambiguity that brings me to what I found the most interesting thing about "The Northern Caves": the conversation around it.
Naturally, as a work with a lot of ambigious elements will curate, there's a lot of controversy about the ending. Some people really hate it, some people love it. Some people say it's good but the unnecessary addition of three suicides confused them and pushed the story too far away from the plausible. Some of these people really, vehemently hate the ending.
Okay, so, who are these people and why do they hate it so much? Background info: there is a movement called the rationalist movement, a philosphical movement which can be defined as "...a community that call themselves Rationalists, that read ‘high-IQ sites’ such as Marginal Revolution, Less Wrong, and Slate Star Codex, and according to various surveys, identify as liberal, are atheist or agnostic, and, in general, hold a ‘realist’ philosophical worldview."[1] You've probably encountered someone like this on the internet before, YMMV on how you feel about it. The reason why rationality is relevant is that nostalgebraist is considered part of that community, and his work was linked within rationalist communities as an example of a work made by "one of them".[2]
Rationalists - as seen on the internet - tend to focus in communities dedicated to exploring rationalist works of fiction, works of fiction that focus on the same scientific deconstruction and explanation of rational elements that they take interest in. "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality" is the most famous work of this nature, written by Elizier Yudkowsky who himself is a proclaimed rationalist. The parallels between the rational community and the in-universe forum are not easy to miss. The forum wanted to pick apart Salby's final work to make sense in the same way that the Rationalist community demands answers and a lack of unreliability. Ambiguity is inherently displeasing, everything needs to make sense, and everything must be answered for. Throw "The Northern Caves" into this kind of community and what do you think you will get?
Vehement dislike, is what you get.
For an example of a rationalist review, look towards Slate Star Scratchpad's which has the hallmarks of a rationlist review. Slate's negative points of the novel include a lack of conclusiveness over the major elements, details drawn that aren't adequetely explained, and the overall "horror" being too ambigious. Slate overall wanted everything to be finally drawn out and explained so every thread would tie back into having a reason.
This state of mind paralles the in-universe forum urge to ignore the incomprehensible so strongly it's almost absurd. Fiction mirroring reality. I'm not going to say this state of mind is necessarily a bad one, it can be nice to see things tie up and packaged together in a satisfying way that resolves everything. However, this state of mind is not one I share, and to be quite honest, find boring. "The Northern Caves" is a work of horror fiction. The very act of ambiguity is an intentional choice to create the feeling of paranoia and dissolution, not a mistake left by being unable to resolve the elements nostalgebraist introduced.
Seeing nostalgebraist's work with the context they are aware of the rationlist movement recontextualises the early scenes of fervent devotion to the novel manifasted in deep analysis in continuity and the linkage of tiny details. In-universe reviews criticse Salby's novels for sticking too throughly to these ideals, being "complicated without complexity". That is, confusingly detailed without any deeper level of maturity. One can't wonder if nostalgebraist perceives the rational community as that. It certainly doesn't harm the case that nostalgebraist doesn't see himself as rationalist, despite the community at large considering them a member. [3]
Complicated without complexity.
Predicting the Future?
When I started writing this, I hadn't even considered this angle. Something I had read about previously, and forgotten.
The last half of TNC focuses more on Salby's view of "mundum" and the narrator falling into these belief patterns, while the final chapter confirms the narrator created a cult following Salby's views after the main events of the narrative.
I can't help but compare this to the more recent events in the rational community. The events that pushed the idea of "effective altruism" into the light, and more importantly, into controversy.
Effective altruism can be defined as a way to min-max your own altruist effect on the world through the means of spending large amounts of capital in the most efficient way. Rather than volunteering your time, it is considered better to invest and then donate that money to the most cost effective cause. This philisophy is closely linked to ideas of rationalism as often spread through rationalist websites such as LessWrong. It has been (justly) criticised for applying a business analytical view to being kind, in a way that justifies the aggregation of capital for one's own self in defense that it helps the whole world. If it wasn't already clear I heavily dislike this philosphy for many hopefully obvious reasons.
The events that pushed effective altruism into the limelight was the fall of Sam Bankman-Fried, of crypto-currency fame. He was a prone proponent of effective altruism, attaching his own business to that label. However, the reveal of his fradualent activity and eventual conviction sheds an eye on the reality of this philosophy. Gaining capital to such a high degree will - at some point - involve moral failings. To become a billionaire one must profit off other people's labour, off the excess difference between their position as leadership and the ones actually doing the physical labour. Crypto is an industry filled with scams, so if "effective altruism" was a philosphy purely motivated by altruism surely people like Sam Bankman-Fried would not exist. But of course they do, because effective altruism is an inherently flawed philosophy.
In TNC the narrator eventually ends up leading a cult following the ideology of Mundum, of this idea of perfect arrangement. Sam Bankman-Fried has been described as leading a cult of personality around his focus on crypto. Looking back on TNC, a work posted in 2015, with this future knowledge makes the narrative that much more intriguing. Was this work specifically about the rational community? Or was it about the general flaws in human nature that could lead one down the path of obsession?
Either way, I simply find it fascinating to consider a work of art that could predict their own communities' downfall, and I hope you enjoyed this exploration with me.
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/rationalist-movement ↩
[2] Reddit comment from r/Rational about Nostalgebraist's TNC↩
[3] https://nostalgebraist.tumblr.com/post/134791271364/am-i-a-rationalist ↩
Trying to Find Great Books
Nov. 14th, 2023 08:26 pmDo you ever read a book that hits all your favourite things so well that you then compare everything you read to it? That’s me with all of MXTX’s works. I read them around a year ago and can’t stop comparing them to whatever original work I’m reading. It’s not great because I feel it’s making me hypercritical of what I read but… if I’m not enjoying something to the extent I want to be, I can’t force that.
MXTX’s works are the books The Scum Villain’s Self-Saving System (SVSSS), Grandmaster or Demonic Cultivation (MDZS) and Heaven Official’s Blessing (TGCF). I love how these books deal with the ideas of villainy as a role placed into people by society, that everyone is deserving of sympathy, and violent revenge is ultimately unsatisfying. These books hit my likes so incredibly well and I love them so much! I just wish there was more.
I have been trying to read more original fiction for the past year or so, and have been succeeding (I have already managed to completely my goodreads goal for this year!) except I find a lot of books feel lacking in comparison. I’m currently reading Martha Wells’ ‘Witch King’ which has a summary that felt very similar to MDZS, however I’m currently finding it fairly overwhelming and uninteresting. There’s a lot to world building thrown at me and the main character who I would hope would help ground the new world, is hard to grasp. I’m around 130 pages in and I haven’t got to the point where I really feel myself diving into that world rather than reading it because I feel like I should to finish it. I’ve had similar experiences with a few books, where they appear to be tackling similar themes and ideas to MXTX’s works but don’t hit in the same way, or don’t listen to that idea fully.
For example, I read T Kingfisher’s ‘Nettle and Bone’ which presents itself as a new take on the ideas of princesses needing saving - but the structure itself doesn’t feel very revolutionary and falls into a predictable structure with a fairly black and white outlook. It feels like it’s trying to be more morally grey and complicated in its approach, but the final villain is always presented as unquestionably bad. Of course, I could be expecting too much from what is advertised as an adventure - but I wanted at least something to surprise me rather than the whole plot feeling telegraphed from the start. Black and white moral systems with a lack of exploration of their central villains are just lacking for me now, but it’s unfortunately too uncommon as I assume it’s a lot easier to present a villain to be defeated and then defeat them then to dig into the issues surrounding the idea of a ‘villain’ at all.
I’m wondering if part of my problem is that MXTX’s works were published as web novels first. When posted in that structure without a publisher or editor instructing her on how to make her works more marketable, it means that MXTX’s works have more free rein to do what she wants. It does mean that some of the books can feel excessively long and in need of a bit of a trim - looking at you TGCF - but it also allows for more genre freedom than the strict lens of marketability that publishers would like. Scum Villain’s conclusion in a traditional romance book would never get published, that I’m sure of. My favourite parts of MXTX is the combination of horror, humour and romance elements, all of which combine and contrast each other while told by a skillful hand. Perhaps I won’t get the experience of MXTX again, or maybe I’ll find it another web novel. Here’s hoping!
MXTX’s works are the books The Scum Villain’s Self-Saving System (SVSSS), Grandmaster or Demonic Cultivation (MDZS) and Heaven Official’s Blessing (TGCF). I love how these books deal with the ideas of villainy as a role placed into people by society, that everyone is deserving of sympathy, and violent revenge is ultimately unsatisfying. These books hit my likes so incredibly well and I love them so much! I just wish there was more.
I have been trying to read more original fiction for the past year or so, and have been succeeding (I have already managed to completely my goodreads goal for this year!) except I find a lot of books feel lacking in comparison. I’m currently reading Martha Wells’ ‘Witch King’ which has a summary that felt very similar to MDZS, however I’m currently finding it fairly overwhelming and uninteresting. There’s a lot to world building thrown at me and the main character who I would hope would help ground the new world, is hard to grasp. I’m around 130 pages in and I haven’t got to the point where I really feel myself diving into that world rather than reading it because I feel like I should to finish it. I’ve had similar experiences with a few books, where they appear to be tackling similar themes and ideas to MXTX’s works but don’t hit in the same way, or don’t listen to that idea fully.
For example, I read T Kingfisher’s ‘Nettle and Bone’ which presents itself as a new take on the ideas of princesses needing saving - but the structure itself doesn’t feel very revolutionary and falls into a predictable structure with a fairly black and white outlook. It feels like it’s trying to be more morally grey and complicated in its approach, but the final villain is always presented as unquestionably bad. Of course, I could be expecting too much from what is advertised as an adventure - but I wanted at least something to surprise me rather than the whole plot feeling telegraphed from the start. Black and white moral systems with a lack of exploration of their central villains are just lacking for me now, but it’s unfortunately too uncommon as I assume it’s a lot easier to present a villain to be defeated and then defeat them then to dig into the issues surrounding the idea of a ‘villain’ at all.
I’m wondering if part of my problem is that MXTX’s works were published as web novels first. When posted in that structure without a publisher or editor instructing her on how to make her works more marketable, it means that MXTX’s works have more free rein to do what she wants. It does mean that some of the books can feel excessively long and in need of a bit of a trim - looking at you TGCF - but it also allows for more genre freedom than the strict lens of marketability that publishers would like. Scum Villain’s conclusion in a traditional romance book would never get published, that I’m sure of. My favourite parts of MXTX is the combination of horror, humour and romance elements, all of which combine and contrast each other while told by a skillful hand. Perhaps I won’t get the experience of MXTX again, or maybe I’ll find it another web novel. Here’s hoping!
BNHA Relationship Stats
May. 10th, 2022 12:47 pmSometimes I like to find random stats for things. Sometimes I like to share these stats. So, here are my random BNHA stats for anyone who is interested in that kind of thing. All these stats are taken from the wayback machine, so only fics available to guest readers are counted in these numbers. Also there was no main page data for January 2019, so the data from February 2019 was used instead. Therefore these stats aren't exactly accurate, but provide a general glimpse at the movements and trends within the fandom. This post will also contain vague manga spoilers when I give my own thoughts on the statistics provided.
( Read more... )
